91 – Hidden Dangers Facing Your Organization (Part 1)

In this episode, Peter and Sonny discuss a comment by Tucker Carlson on the Megyn Kelly podcast, in which they both disagree with President Trump over the war in Iran. Yet Sony disputes Carlson’s view that every war fundamentally transforms societies. He argues that after World War II, Western civilization has been changed by immigration more than by any war. They explain how immigration assimilating into the cultures they migrate to have made a difference in America compared to Europe.

As usual, they go off on multiple tangents about multiple topics, which enrich the conversation beyond Carlson’s misdiagnosis of the situation, according to Maken.

Main discussion topics:
 ► Immigration vs. war as drivers of societal change
 ► Leadership, strategic thinking, and risk analysis
 ► Cultural assimilation and Western society
 ► Industry protection and association management
 ► Politics, media narratives, and public perception
 ► Long-term threats facing the business and construction industries
 

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Transcript

Sonny Maken 0:09

Welcome to the Obvious Podcast, episode number 91. I'm Sonny Maken, CEO at ABC Florida East Coast.

Peter Dyga 0:16

And I'm Peter Dyga, president and CEO at the ABC Florida East Coast.

Sonny Maken 0:20

You are listening or watching our podcast, where all opinions reflected are our own, unless we say otherwise.

Peter Dyga 0:27

Love the show. Subscribe on any major podcast platform or watch us in action on YouTube, which really is worth it. Follow the Obvious Podcast on Instagram, X, and True Social and now on TikTok. All the links you need are in the show notes. You can reach out to us anytime at theobvious@ abceastflorida.com. And if you're enjoying the ride, we ask you to help others find us by leaving a review wherever you listen. Happy Friday, Sonny. Happy Friday. Did you have a good Memorial Day weekend? I had a great Memorial Day weekend.

Sonny Maken 0:56

It was a great episode. I really enjoyed that episode. You know, we need to always remember uh what uh brings America its freedom and what makes America great.

Peter Dyga 1:04

And it's it's absolutely a lot of people have sacrificed all. So anyway, even if just for a moment uh you keep that in in in heart or in mind uh over the week weekend that would that beat that was great. So anyway.

Sonny Maken 1:16

All right. So today I wanted to talk to you about something that I thought was interesting. You know, I I'm a big fan of um Megan Kelly, and I listen to her her show. Mm-hmm. Okay. Not every day, but regularly. Is that another podcast? Yeah or is that a little bit more than a lot of people?

Peter Dyga 1:31

Yeah, wherever, but I don't know that I've ever seen the show.

Sonny Maken 1:33

Um and it's long. I mean, it's you know, we do we we try to do like 20-minute episodes, her show can be. These people do an hour, two, three. And it's g it's guest-driven and news driven, and it's you know.

Peter Dyga 1:44

So I'm I'm just a lot of clips from like Bill Bill Bill Mayer, Marr? Marr, yeah. Bill Maher. You know, and his like interviews with people, which I find the clips fascinating. So but I never I haven't really got into watching whole shows, you know, of people who do that.

Sonny Maken 1:57

Speaking of clips, um I know we've been getting a lot of feedback, negative feedback on TikTok from from the young liberals. Yeah. Um the only thing I would ask is watch the whole show, right? Like, I really don't want to hear your opinion based on a clip that you've seen because you're missing important context. I mean, the whole idea of a clip is to get you to see the episode and then engage.

Peter Dyga 2:19

So, I mean earlier before uh the show about um young kids rediscovering. Yes, you know, right?

Sonny Maken 2:28

Yeah, where did you see this? Basic truths. It was on somewhere on on socials, like Gen Z is out there. Uh oh, you know, have you discovered books yet? Like it's sort of Kindle. They use this thing made from trees called paper. Right.

Peter Dyga 2:45

It's like you can flip the pages. I mean, it's funny. It's amazing the knowledge that's in there.

Sonny Maken 2:49

You never have to worry about the battery running out or recharging a book, you know.

Peter Dyga 2:53

Like it's yeah, it's like, you know, have you tried this reason thing or logic? It's like, you know, really under Gen Z.

Sonny Maken 3:01

Anyway, um, so I'm listening to Megan Kelly, and we we have to get back on track. Uh I'm listening to Megan Kelly, and she has on her guest um Tucker Carlson.

Peter Dyga 3:12

Remember him? I do remember him. I mean, when he was on Fox, I loved his show. I thought it was the best show. The guy was super smart, but I've just I don't know, he's I I've lost interest. Yeah and uh I don't follow him very closely anymore.

Sonny Maken 3:24

Before people get triggered, this episode is not about Tucker Carlson or Tucker Carlson's opinions. But Tucker Carlson said something that got me thinking, and I was in the car listening to this with my daughter, and I'm like, he's wrong. And I kind of gave my daughter some examples, and she's like, You should be teaching in college. And that's what we want to talk about. Right, that's what we want to talk about. But how about the topic? How well let me explain to you what he said. So they're discussing, and this was a few weeks ago, and they're discussing uh Trump and the Iran war and why Tucker's against the Iran. Shocking. Right? And he's like, Look, I'm not an anti-Semite, I I know Jewish people, I love Jewish people. So Megan Kelly makes a point, uh, uh asks him a question, and she basically basically basically says, Tucker, uh, I get it. You know, he's really upset you with the with the war thing. But what about the other issues where I agree with him and would support him again, uh him being the president, and she's talking about she's brought up too specific, although some people could argue there there could be a whole litany of things. Yeah, but she specifically brought up the trans issue and immigration, right? He shut the border down.

Peter Dyga 4:28

Um he's trans issue, you mean the whole men competing in women's sports. Women's sports and things like that. Yeah, yeah, and mutilating anyway, mutilating kids on their own decision without anyway.

Sonny Maken 4:40

So this is this is Megan Kelly's point. This is not our opinion. I'm just repeating what Megan Kelly said, just so we're clear. Megan Kelly's point was okay, you and I, Tucker and I, she's talking about she's referring to herself. Tucker and I disagree with the president on the Iran war, but because of the good that he's done on other areas, I would still vote for him again. And she's she's she is specifically referring to those two issues. And now, this is what really got me got me going because this is Tucker's response to her. He's like, Look, I understand what you're saying. I agree with you, he's been good on trans issues, he's been good on immigration issues. But to me, war is the most important thing because war changes societies.

Peter Dyga 5:22

And your brain immediately, which I, you know, again, fascinated by your brain, Sonny. Your brain very few people say that. Your brain immediately was like, but hold it, right?

Sonny Maken 5:33

Yeah. You were like I was like, hold it. That's not true. You could argue that point that war changes countries and societies in fundamental ways. You could argue that point historically, and you could argue that point about World War I, you could argue that point about World War II. Post-World War II, that is a very difficult point to argue. Now, you could argue, so let's take the Middle East, for example. When we when George Bush bombed the crap out of Iraq, you could argue that fundamentally changed Iraq. Agreed. I'm not so if you're on the receiving end of sort of American um might, it's gonna change your society. No doubt about that.

Peter Dyga 6:08

Okay, right? What about the Iranian 47-year war on America?

Sonny Maken 6:12

It has changed the lives of those people whose lives they took, or the or the families of the lives that they took.

Peter Dyga 6:18

I don't know, global stability and peace.

Sonny Maken 6:20

It's had a negative impact on global stability and peace. But you know, but it hasn't fundamentally transformed society.

Peter Dyga 6:26

Okay.

Sonny Maken 6:27

That's my that was his point. Wars wars transformed society. And my whole point is wars have not transformed society. And let's just sort of be even more specific in terms of my thinking. So wars have not transformed Western Europe and and Western society since World War II. Right? You could argue But you had a counter-thesis as well, right?

Peter Dyga 6:50

It wasn't just like you were like, yeah. My counter-thesis was this, I should really get it. Which again, by the way, is a is a good trait. Everybody should have it. You should be questioning, right? So again, just because somebody says something like you should be processing in your brain, uh you know, can I think of examples where that may or may not be true? And that's what happened in this case with you. Yeah. And you thought actually you think there's something more significant, right?

Sonny Maken 7:12

I could I could easily argue that Western civilization has been changed more by immigration than any war. Uh certainly World War II. Post-World War II. Western civilization has been changed more by immigration than any any war. Why how could that be, Sonny? Right. Has it changed Europe? Yeah, they've changed Western Europe. Has it changed the change they've changed, they've changed Britain. Has it changed the United States? It's in the way, yeah. It's changed, and our and immigration has had a huge impact on the United States.

Peter Dyga 7:43

How has it changed those areas, Sonny?

Sonny Maken 7:45

I mean, it's been good and bad. I mean, I don't want to make it sound like it's all been sort of negative and and the world is and the sky is falling. You know, I think England has really benefited from the food that the immigrants have brought because they are their cuisine is absolutely garbage. Oh, yum. And if you want to send us hate mail, it's the obvious that ABC East Florida cannot, you cannot by It's gonna be a TikTok clip. You cannot by any standard, any imagination, defend British cuisine. You can't, right? I really I mean on beef Wellington, Yorkshire Pudding. Okay. Even even the crappiest places in the world have like something nice. I get it, right? Like fish and chips. You could argue fish and chips, right? But most British food is absolute garbage, and we know it, and everyone knows it. I remember my first time in England going to a really nice pub and asking for a chicken sandwich, and it was boiled chicken breast with the crust cut off, and the and it was white bread and chicken breast with mayo and nothing else. The most horrendous thing I'd ever eaten, and it was 22 pounds, and I was really upset by it. And then I went to a Syrian restaurant, had an amazing meal.

Peter Dyga 8:53

So I think Britain has really But in this day and age here you really need immigration to better your culinary choices. I mean, you know, we live in a worldwide culture.

Sonny Maken 9:04

You don't really anyway. Right. I mean that's yes. But I think I think I think England or United Kingdom has really sort of I know you're trying to be transformed by immigration. I feel like France has been transformed by immigration. Uh but in what way? I think because the ki the kind of immigration that they have brought post-World War II is the kind of immigration that has refused to assimilate. I think what is made the ding-ding-ding-ding. What has really allowed America to thrive is that most emigrants most immigrants come to America and assimilate and adopt American values and adopt American culture and fight to be successful as an American. And I think that idea of American immigration, by the way. No, I think that's not a given.

Peter Dyga 9:51

Why? Why why you you know why is uh you say US?

Sonny Maken 9:55

I don't want to say I'm gonna get so much hate mail if I said my true opinion on this issue. But I'm not I I can't I can't say it. But I just can't can you sugarcoat it.

Peter Dyga 10:06

Come on, Sonny.

Sonny Maken 10:07

Let's see how good you are. This is gonna be a very controversial episode.

Peter Dyga 10:11

I uh so I asked because I have an opinion, and I think it has uh in large part due to um a couple things. Well one, quite frankly, I think um being discerning who you let in. Okay. Right. I can give you that part. So um, you know, having open borders as opposed to the million people that this country lets in legally every year, and having a very deliberate um assessment uh, you know, of of why you're coming and what you hope to achieve. And, you know, so I think that's a great that's a great way to put it. You know, I think we have to be very discerning about that. I think that's one of the things. And the other thing I think is the pace. And I think that's the thing that's caught us up mostly in the last decade or two. Uh, you know, because if the pace it overwhelms the culture's ability to assimilate people into the cultural norms. And I got quite frankly, I complain about this a lot, and I can give you an example from my neighborhood. I live in a pretty diverse neighborhood. Diverse, um middle class, you know, neighborhood. Um and I've just seen changes, quite frankly, as the neighborhood became less, you know, um multi-generational Americans as opposed to first generation or whatnot Americans, to where, you know, people cutting across your lawn, people not taking care of their lawn, people having their play furniture out in the front yard.

Sonny Maken 11:30

It reminds me of uh Clint Eastwood in that movie where he just sits in his front and his porch and he tells me. I love Clint Eastwood.

Peter Dyga 11:38

Which show are we talking about? Which movie? You got all the movie references.

Clint Eastwood 11:42

Get off my lawn.

Peter Dyga 11:44

No, but I think seriously though, I mean.

Sonny Maken 11:49

Tell me if you agree that the pace is I think the pace has been has overwhelmed. And and you can especially see this in Europe where they go into these small towns that are very heterogeneous and then they f flood them with immigrants. And these are not immigrants. I mean, for the most part, there's obviously exceptions to all of this, for the most part, that are looking to uh assimilate. They're looking to sort of establish their own cultural dominance.

Peter Dyga 12:12

So let me try to redeem myself. You know, I think one of the one of the things that we're I can bring you to be, there's nothing to redeem yourself.

Sonny Maken 12:19

By the way, none of this is even the point of the episode. So we need to kind of get to that. So we've gotten it's uh this was not meant to be an immigration conversation.

Peter Dyga 12:26

My job is to distract, and your job is to keep us focused. So I was just gonna say, I mean, I think um what makes immigration the most beautiful thing to me is because you generally try to take the best of both cultures. I mean, that to me is what makes immigration so powerful. Yes. And why the milk why the melting pot of who we are and have been as a country was so powerful is because um you might say those things, not so great, leave those behind. Yeah. But the the the love of family and the family culture and those kind of things, bring them with you and and make them a stronger part of the American culture. You know, so and then but they also uh a lot of immigrants came and they were like uh uh you know, the the ambition and the hard work will get you ahead and the uh anyway. And we go on and on with all sorts of so you take the best of both cultures, and and if you do that at the right pace, then you end up things melting together as opposed to being glumpy, you know, or a bad, a bad melting pot experience where the cheese is not, you know.

Sonny Maken 13:32

A melting pot as opposed to a toss salad. Yeah, yeah. Right? But I think most immigrants, like again, oh my gosh, I gotta get to the point of the show. But most immigrants are really we're really shocked. Remember when that whole Somali daycare issue popped up in Minnesota?

Peter Dyga 13:46

Oh yeah.

Sonny Maken 13:46

Right? Because I don't think most assimilated, hardworking immigrants are are here to to commit fraud, right? Right. They're here to sort of you know work in their own lives, contribute to society, do better really do better for their kids. Right?

Peter Dyga 14:00

And as opposed to just get on the gravy train.

Sonny Maken 14:03

Exactly. Which unfortunately is yeah. But then you see a glaring um sort of news story like that.

Peter Dyga 14:09

But certain congressional folks would tell you you're just you're just characterizing, placing a whole immigrant class in the stereotype.

Sonny Maken 14:20

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I've heard Somali stereotypes from other African immigrants that would leave you very, very surprised. But look, obviously not every Somali is uh is a criminal, not every immigrant is a criminal. That's not the point of of this conversation.

Peter Dyga 14:34

Rush Limbaugh used to say, what's the point? Right. Anyway. They used to say that to his scholars when they like wouldn't get to a question. Yeah.

Sonny Maken 14:42

So the point of this whole show, which was not immigration, it wasn't, is how to because I feel like Tucker Carlson misdiagnosed a threat. That's right. Right? He misdiagnosed a threat to the country.

Peter Dyga 14:56

To the current to the world. In his sort of Western.

Sonny Maken 14:59

Yeah, it's not immigration and transit shows it's war. No, you're wrong. Yeah. More change has happened from immigration. So what I wanted to talk about was, and we're probably gonna have to do this as a two-party because I think we're running out of time. What I really wanted to talk about was kind of hidden threats or how to how to pay attention. Oh, yeah. How to do your how to do your your risk analysis and your threat, you know, threat analysis accurately. So you don't fall into the same trap? Into the same trap that Tucker Carson fell into. Okay. That's really what I wanted to talk about. That's really sort of what the the point of the episode was.

Peter Dyga 15:31

In what sense? You mean like when it comes to the work we do or yeah.

Sonny Maken 15:35

Organizationally, like what we do, right? How do we identify just where I ring the bell? You this is where you can ring the bell. How do we as an organization, right? Because I know you use the you use the phrase association management all the time, but really, we're not really association managers. We are industry protectors. Right? We are we are trying to fight and protect an industry. Now you're peaking my interest. Right? So as industry protectors, we can't really protect an industry if we don't do a good job analytically and strategically.

Peter Dyga 16:09

All right. So how do we how do you do that?

Sonny Maken 16:11

As a person, I don't think that's a better job than what you think Tucker did. Well, Tucker, I think, did a did a terrible job because he's and again, I'm not speaking on Tucker's motivations or whatever. Like, you know, he he knows that obviously way better than I know that, but he does a he does a a good job misdiagnosing.

Peter Dyga 16:29

Not a dumb guy either. No, very, you know.

Sonny Maken 16:31

So there's been all sorts of uh proclamations about him getting money from the Middle East and the Qatari relationship, blah, blah, blah. So again, not the point of the show. And I'm not really interested in why he misdiagnosed it, but he misdiagnosed it and it got me thinking how do we accurately diagnose the threat? Because I think Europe, well, broadly has misled.

Peter Dyga 16:50

Clearly, the way you do that, Sonny, is whoever the squeaky wheel is.

Sonny Maken 16:54

Right. Okay. Explain that.

Peter Dyga 16:57

Well, I don't know. If the subject is is how to avoid this, then you you know, I'm I'm obviously tongue in cheek. Right. I'm being sarcastic, but uh, you know, it's not always. It could be. I mean, it doesn't automatically disqualify it, but you know, you don't just do things just because it's the squeakiest wheel. Right. You know, and it would be a lot easier to just address it so that you can move on because it's the path of least resistance. You know, so that's what I'm trying to say. In fact, you know, usually it's not the path of least resistance. Usually it's uh, you know, it's hard, hard cum. Right. You know, um takes quite a bit of thinking and work and and uh trying to dig into, you know. So I don't, you know, I'm trying to think uh here at the association. I mean, I think uh you read a lot of stuff about, you know, meetings and strategic planning sessions and surveys, and you know, you want to make sure that the quiet person is actually given an opportunity too, because they might have some. That's a really good point. That's really good. You know, right here on management school and all the stuff, you know, it's always make sure you know a good leader is gonna make sure that uh you don't just let somebody dominate the conversation and you make you make an opportunity for uh everybody to provide some input. You know, and making sure you're doing a good job of um, you know, making sure you're you've got a broad uh spectrum of input. So I mean that's one way. Okay, I would say. I can see this episode is we're we're getting into it here. Yeah. So we're gonna have to like extend this, I think, yeah. We'll have to go to part two. Sometimes we don't know that going into it, but so that's the beauty of a podcast, right? Yeah, so any event, that's great, because uh this is going in a direction that hopefully is of interest uh to others as much as it is to us and the conversation. So let's finish this up in a part two.

Sonny Maken 18:38

All right. Thank you for uh joining us this Friday. And uh we are grateful for your time and we look forward to serving you in another episode well, part two of this episode next Friday.

Peter Dyga 18:47

And for comments, you can send us an email at any time at the obvious@ abceastflorida.com. Love to hear from you. Until next time. Ciao. Take care.