95 – Policy vs. Politics

In this episode, Peter and Sonny discuss the critical difference between policy and politics and why that distinction matters to the future of the construction industry. Drawing directly from ABC's founding principles, they explore the merit shop philosophy, free enterprise, open competition, workforce development, and the role of business leaders in civic engagement. 

The conversation examines how organizations can stay true to their mission, values, and strategic goals while navigating elections, public policy, government affairs, and industry advocacy. They also discuss meritocracy, leadership, candidate endorsements, and why policy alignment matters more than partisan politics in advancing construction and economic growth.

You can watch the episode in YouTube by clicking here: https://youtu.be/zFICsKk33Tc

Main discussion topics:

• Merit shop philosophy and ABC's founding principles 
• Policy vs. politics in business and construction 
• Free enterprise, open competition, and meritocracy 
• Candidate evaluation and issue-based advocacy 
• Leadership, organizational values, and mission alignment 
• Construction industry representation and workforce development

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Transcript

Sonny Maken 0:09

Welcome to the Obvious Podcast. This is episode number 95. My name is Sonny Maken. I'm the CEO at ABC Florida East Coast.

Peter Dyga 0:16

And I'm Peter Dyga, president and CEO at ABC Florida East Coast.

Sonny Maken 0:20

You are listening to the Obvious Podcast, or you're watching the Obvious Podcast where all opinions reflect ref oh my gosh. You would think it was my first time doing this. You're listening or watching the Obvious Podcast where all opinions expressed are our own unless we say otherwise. Love the show.

Peter Dyga 0:34

We ask you to subscribe on major podcast platforms or watch us in action on YouTube. Follow the Obvious Podcast on Instagram, X, Truth Social, and TikTok. All the links you need are in the show notes. And reach out to us anytime at theobvious@ ABC EastFlorida.com. And if you're enjoying the ride, help others find us by leaving a review wherever you listen. Happy Friday, Sonny. Happy Friday, Peter. How are you doing?

Sonny Maken 1:00

Dog days of summer are here.

Peter Dyga 1:01

They are.

Sonny Maken 1:03

That's right. We are in the thick of it. So uh what are we talking about today?

Peter Dyga 1:07

We're gonna talk about I don't know, policy or politics. Is that the Yeah.

Sonny Maken 1:12

Policy or politics.

Peter Dyga 1:14

Yeah. All right. So shall I ring the bell?

Sonny Maken 1:16

Yeah, yeah.

Peter Dyga 1:17

Let's ring the gate and let's ring the bell. You know, and again, you want to tell us why you think we ring the bell and you're spot on. We'll give you something free.

Sonny Maken 1:24

Yeah. We don't know what, so it'll be free. It won't cost you anything.

Peter Dyga 1:27

I I wanted to read uh maybe from the bylaws of the association. By the way, the make this an exciting show, Peter. Well, this is from the articles one, which is the principles of the organization. Is this our bylaws or the principles? So these are uh very similar. In fact, they may be identical in our chapter bylaws and our ABC National. So I'm gonna read from the ABC National bylaws.

Sonny Maken 1:48

Okay.

Peter Dyga 1:49

So in uh our Article One, so the very first article in our bylaws has to do with the principles of the merit shop.

Sonny Maken 1:55

Okay.

Peter Dyga 1:56

Now, those that don't know, and I hope everybody does, but ABC is um we should define what the merit shop is. Yeah, I mean, I think we're a unique organization. You know, every I've said this before, every nonprofit or association has to represent its members or its membership. If it doesn't, it's gonna be out of business. Right. I mean, so they all have an interest, you know. But one of the things that I've always said sets ABC apart is that we're not only about representing the interests of our members, we're also about a philosophy. In fact, we coined the phrase. I think this organization coined the phrase, the merit shop. Um, you know, a more uh traditional definition is maybe non-joint, you know, or joint. I'm not sure where they ever came up with those terms, but or union and non-union. So, but you know, we don't consider ourselves non-union or uh anti-union or anything like that. We're just merit shop. You know, if you're willing to abide by the merit shop principles, then you're welcome here.

Sonny Maken 2:49

Which are what? What are the principles?

Peter Dyga 2:50

So it's a great question. So, I mean, and again, by the way, this is why we've titled this episode Policy or Politics, you know, because it it's not it's not politics, it's it's at the core of our DNA, it's who we are, and I I believe we're very true uh to those original core values and mission of the merit shop. So Article One of our bylaws say that ABC is the voice of the merit shop in the construction industry, and we assume the responsibility for making that voice heard. Wow. All right, you know, so there's a lot of people that can confuse the fact that we're being true to being the voice of the merit shop and making sure that voice is heard as well, you know, and by the way, podcasts are some ways of doing that. Literally, our voices are being heard. Literally, you know, so uh it's not politics to be true to our DNA and our mission as an organization. That's what a true good organization would do. You know. So um we believe sentence two in the article one is we believe that the merit shop movement is a movement for the betterment of the individual, the industry, and the nation.

Sonny Maken 4:05

Wow.

Peter Dyga 4:06

I mean sentence three, we believe in the system of free enterprise and open competition. And that's literally the the core of the merit shop. That is the core of the merit shop. Meritocracy. Which by the way, it's beautiful that we're also having this conversation about the merit merit shop and meritocracy and the on the uh footsteps, if you will, of our 250th anniversary anniversary as a country. Because I mean I think this country embeds or has for most of our history. I think there's some effort and some interests that you know are not so interested in maintaining this core value of the country. But I think we've always been a country of meritocracy and merit shop, where your hard work pays off. Yeah.

Sonny Maken 4:51

Right?

Peter Dyga 4:52

Your commitment uh to bettering yourself, you know, and whatnot. So and man, I'm I know thinking back to, you know, like last week's episode where we talked about, you know, for free education and and and good guaranteed uh job offers and whatnot. Anyway, so much about what we do kind of harkens back to the core of who we are as an organization and being true to that mission and that philosophy. So did I finish that when I started? You know, that every organization has to represent its members, but one of the unique things about ABC is we're also representing a philosophy, you know, that merit shop. Yeah, free.

Sonny Maken 5:24

Our values, the values of uh meritocracy, open competition.

Peter Dyga 5:30

That's right. Uh another sentence in Article I of the bylaws is we believe that the destiny of all this this is in our bylaws. The destiny. We believe that the destiny of all Americans can best be served by cooperation and following the tenets of free enterprise and democratic government. We believe business leaders can best preserve these tenets by becoming active in politics and civic affairs.

Sonny Maken 5:57

Wow. Looks like Adam Smith wrote that. Right? Right. The Wealth of Nations, if you don't haven't read it.

Peter Dyga 6:04

So I don't know. Um, you know, I wanted to talk about this today because there's um at times over my uh 27 years at ABC, there have been people that that uh don't don't either know or appreciate the heritage or the DNA of ABC, and then they might say, We're too political. Yeah. It's in our it's in our friggin' bylaws. Yeah. We we believe people's involvement in that process and defending and believing in free enterprise in the merit shop. And I believe everything we do can should be measured against that. If anybody's got a complaint that we're not true to that, bring it. You know, but if we're only being true to that and and you perceive it as political or something political, sorry. I mean, you you're gonna have to get involved in the organization and change the mission statement, change that that part article of our bylaws. Yeah. You know, bring it to the national organization and change it.

Sonny Maken 6:59

That's really what people are doing is they're confusing politics and policy. That's exactly right. That's the point. That's the whole point of this episode. It's do not confuse politics and policy. So when you're a per when you're a values-driven organization, and guess what drives you? Those values. When those values are well defined in our mission statement that's written behind me, they're well defined in the bylaws. So the pursuit to be true to those values, to be to be true to the mission, that's our policy. And that is not to be confused with politics.

Peter Dyga 7:32

The great that's exactly right. And the timing of this, again, couldn't be more perfect, because we're in the middle of a big election year. Uh we're in the middle of summer, which is a big campaign season in this country and this state. Uh we recently as an organization have, as we always have every two years, candidate interviews. Yeah. Uh we have a you know, a questionnaire where we ask people running for office about issues pertinent to us, the construction industry, the free enterprise, and open competition. Um and we ask them about those issues and then we interview them about them. And my I think where it ties into politics, uh not confusing politics and policy is and I'm gonna give you some really good examples of anything where we've had people in the past that actually have tried to make it political. And we've avoided it. Because one of the things I make sure I've always uh told members who are inter in participating in the interview, candidate interview process with us is your job is to support, determine and support the candidates who are most aligned. Whose values are most aligned. Whose values are most aligned with with these values that we just started off the program reading to you from our bylaws. That's the job of our. It's not to kind of put your finger to the wind and find out who's the front runner, because there's a big tendency to try to do that. You want to be a winner, you know, and you want to get behind a winner, you know, and it's not because maybe they're a 98-pound or what is it, 300-298-pound gorilla that you know you don't want to be on the bad side or losing side of. Well, if they're not aligned with us, yeah, you do. That's the difference between putting politics above policy. Yeah. When you're wanting to support candidates just because they're affiliated, or because they're your friends, or your friends, or because they're front runners, or because they have a big name, that's putting politics above policy.

Sonny Maken 9:25

Oh, they have the financial edge.

Peter Dyga 9:26

That that is the tr is is open to true criticism in this organization.

Sonny Maken 9:31

Yeah.

Peter Dyga 9:32

But but not being aligned with the policies of the merit shop, meritocracy, and free markets. Very simple. And that's our only goal interviewing candidates is which one. And you may find oftentimes that there may be no difference in your mind. Then you can kind of talk about, okay, well, so and so is a front runner. Yeah. I mean, they're both equally equally aligned in terms of our mission, our values, and then you can start to have those conversations.

Sonny Maken 9:55

But that's so rare.

Peter Dyga 9:56

But the fur that's right. The first and foremost thing you gotta be trying to figure out as an organization. And and again, we're constantly reminding you know our members is because um we invest a lot in pursuing and defending a lot of money. A lot of time. Th these these values and blood and sweat.

Sonny Maken 10:15

Yep, absolutely. And the thing is, our members and our leadership and our our it's all volunteers, right? They they're not living this stuff uh day in and day out. And we are. So we that's why literally everywhere you go in this office you'll see our mission statement written down. It's on you know agendas of meetings and everything. So because we're constantly trying to remind people this is why we're here. Like why do we exist?

Peter Dyga 10:39

But on our poster, I mean, the poster behind you. Yeah. I mean, there's even it's even on that, which is a poster we use kind of locally at the chapter, and it's just reflecting really um you know those bylaws. But what is that line in there to promote integrity integrity and the merit shop philosophy?

Sonny Maken 10:55

So the merit shop is obviously open competition and free markets and meritocracy. That's right. That's right.

Peter Dyga 11:00

So you know, I think we're very proud of the fact that uh as stewards um who are given the responsibility of pursuing the mission and values that have been established by our leaders, our industry leaders, uh, that we're very um uh jealously protect right, you know, those things. And I mean the one thing I'll tell you if it hurts when people confuse politics with policy.

Sonny Maken 11:27

Absolutely. You know, but the one thing I'll tell you if an organization isn't true to its values, there's no way it would survive 58 years. There's just no way it wouldn't happen. Right? Most businesses can't even survive five years, and then those who do have a lifespan of about 42 years, it's the average in this country, uh, for a company to survive. And to go at to be at year 58 as an organization, you know, approaching our 60th anniversary very, very quickly, like it's a big deal. And the and the record of success we have in every area is really rooted in the fact that every member of this organization and the staff wholeheartedly pursues the values that this organization is based on. Absolutely. And we fight for those in Tallahassee and in DC. You know, we fight for those on the local level and county levels and you know, state level. We are always talking about meritocracy and open markets and free markets and trying to protect this amazingly uh proud industry that has done so much for this country. Like literally. Amen. Right? You can't do anything if you can't build. Can't do anything. That's it. Yeah, I mean, the building is like the most basic fundamental thing there is. Right. If you can't farm, if you can't get in that building. You know, yeah. Exactly.

Peter Dyga 12:48

Whether it's a hospital or whether it's a fire station, absolutely. It's a school or whether it's a yeah. Yeah. So absolutely. So and you know, my my age old, I think you've heard it from me before. It's always bugged me that the the uh coffee table books are are all about the architects. Yeah, not about the actual not about the people that actually built the the dream that the architects had. You know, they had to make those curves work and those angles and those connections work and those those um um products or uh some you know, the different uh materials and whatnot that are being called for in the given project. Yeah. Anyway, that's always been a bug of mine. If we could do it, we should do our own coffee table. Coffee table book, you know. Absolutely. Um, pictures of the achievements, if you will, of the craft professionals and the Trevor Burrus, but I think the cover picture on the coffee table book would be the New York uh skyline picture with the guys eating lunch. Yeah.

Sonny Maken 13:40

Sitting on that beam. Absolutely. You know, I think that's we're gonna toss that picture up uh as well in this episode so you can see it. World famous, everybody seeing it. Yeah. Beautiful.

Peter Dyga 13:49

Beautiful picture. Different day and age that would never allow that to be built. I wish I would have a hard attack if I saw it. For sure. For sure.

Sonny Maken 13:57

What do you mean? They don't have a helmet on, like you know, from this floor, or from this height, like it's not gonna make anything.

Peter Dyga 14:02

Not if I'm tied off on grief.

Sonny Maken 14:04

Any events. But so in terms of why this matters, right? Like obviously organizationally it matters. But I think one of the things we need to talk about is when people confuse the two, whether it's staff or whether it's it's volunteer leadership, when you confuse the two.

Peter Dyga 14:22

That's the point of all this. Right. Thank you for that.

Sonny Maken 14:25

The point of all of this is when when that line between policy and politics gets confused, there is a a cost or a price of that distraction. Because it's a distraction. Right? And so when you're kind of sort of plowing ahead on your core mission and you're moving forward and you're achieving success and you're working hard, and then something like that pops up, it diverts your attention and it takes away time and it takes away resources because then you have to address something that um if everybody sort of understood the difference, you wouldn't have to address. Right? And I've always said this in in every organization I've ever run that there is always a price to pay for distraction. So let's try to limit our distractions as much as possible. And the the single best way to limit distractions is to faithfully and ardently pursue your mission. And if you're and you can't have a mission without values. Because values and mission are interconnected, right? Like your mission, whatever your organization's mission is, is deeply tied to a set of values. And if you are not pursuing those values, you are not pursuing your mission. And vice versa. And so that interconnectivity between mission and values, you can't you can't extrapolate the two and then just chase something away and say, I'm gonna do this but not do it this way. Because you can't. It's just it's it's it's tied together. So if you don't understand politics versus policy, there will be this constant tension in terms of how you do governance, in terms of how you do management if you're on staff, in terms of how you achieve your goals, in terms of how you even do your strategic planning. All of it sort of starts to come apart at the seams by that confusion. And so it is very that's one of the reasons why we read, or Peter read from the bylaws, is to kind of make it clear that these are not sort of, you know, in the moment thought-of ideas or concepts, that these are are memorialized.

Peter Dyga 16:37

And by the way, can we like post those somewhere in a show note or the article one with the you know, or a link to it or something? I'd love to do that because I've only read a couple small you know, short sentences and an extensive article that talks about the values of the organization. So uh and our principles and what and what guides us. So and that's again, that's the principle that guides us and uh promoting those principles and people who um and trying to get elected, people who will promote them.

Sonny Maken 17:03

Uh and what would you say to leaders who don't agree with those pr uh values and those principles?

Peter Dyga 17:08

Oh, there's plenty of organizations that uh have different principles as their guiding mission. So I would encourage them to find find those organizations. Right. Find an organization that doesn't have any necessarily and that's just interested in representing your business interests. There are organizations like that.

Sonny Maken 17:22

Absolutely.

Peter Dyga 17:23

You know, so and that's fine.

Sonny Maken 17:25

You know, and that's yeah, absolutely. You don't have to agree with the with the values. These are ABC's values, and if you don't agree with them, you can go somewhere else. Yeah, I mean you should agree with them if you belong. Right. So otherwise it's gonna be a miserable experience for everyone involved. So and what's the point of that? That's right. Right?

Peter Dyga 17:41

So and by the way, I think over the years, that's been the driving reason why so many people have gotten engaged and involved and and joined ABC is because they appreciate the fact that there's still an organization out there that's not just your business interests, those are a dime a dozen. Um, but it's it's we're fighting on behalf of this philosophy of open competition, free markets, and meritocracy in the merit shop. You know? Um it's so rare these days, and I think it has driven membership for so so many years. I quite frankly am a believer that the more we uh disconnect ourselves from that, either as a national organization or as a chapter, um, the more detrimental it's going to be to the organization and to membership in the long run. So it might take a while, you know, but eventually it will be.

Sonny Maken 18:29

Um I had a member tell me yesterday, Sonny, the only reason I'm involved with ABC is because I believe wholeheartedly in meritocracy. He said, if ABC ever got away from meritocracy, I would I would leave.

Peter Dyga 18:41

And they're gonna be the most loyal open-engage members, quite frankly, too. Now there are a lot of other values we offer, of course, that do benefit you as a business in your bottom line. And I don't just mean uh the government affairs aspect, because that obviously is policy or or and also driven by politics in a certain way. When you when you understand politics to mean the election of people who understand our challenges and our struggles and our issues. So that's that's the politics the way we mean it. So but I mean the value of the education we do and the networking and the connections and the relationship building and whatnot. I mean, sure, those things are all of tremendous value to people who join. Um but I also hope you appreciate, uh, maybe a little more so after this episode, um, the the core philosophy uh that is at the bottom uh or at the the the foundation, if you will, of ABC and why we do everything we do.

Sonny Maken 19:33

So now we have I know we we are out of time, but we do have some Democrats who represent that value. We have a lot of not all Republicans, but a lot of Republicans represent that value. Um I could argue I could argue that Josh Hawley doesn't represent that value.

Peter Dyga 19:50

Sure, sure. I mean it stinks that at the end of the show we're kind of getting at that that aspect of this, a partisan politics, politics in general. Uh and we have been accused by some over the years of being partisan, but quite frankly, nothing could be further from the truth. We don't we don't, and again, I as I mentioned earlier, when we do our candidate interviews, we're not asking people to find out which one's the Republican. That's easy enough. Right. Or which one's a Democrat. We're asking people to find out who is aligned with our values and mission.

Sonny Maken 20:16

Yeah.

Peter Dyga 20:17

All right. That's all we care about. And that that is the true definition of nonpartisan. Yeah. We don't give a flip about partisanship. Yep. Absolutely values and mission. Now, if there's something about the current political culture or environment that makes one political political party more aligned with those values, that's not our that's not our problem. We didn't agree with this. That's right. And if we can find the candidate on the other side that's a hundred percent uh or more, maybe even one percent more than the other person, and they're a Democrat and the other one's a Republican, then we're gonna be with the Democrat.

Sonny Maken 20:50

Absolutely.

Peter Dyga 20:51

It's it has nothing to do with partisan politics. So and anybody who makes that kind of accusation, just really uh invite them to become a little more engaged in ABC.

Sonny Maken 21:00

On that note, we really gotta go. So thank you for joining us and uh enjoying the show. We look forward to bringing you another episode on next Friday.

Peter Dyga 21:07

Take a look at our uh Article One of our bylaws of the organization. So uh we appreciate your time. And if you want to uh send us comments, you can do so anytime at theobvious@ABCEastFlorida.com. Until next time. Ciao.