98 - Workforce Development 101 - Part 2

In this episode. Peter and Sonny complete their discussion on the basics of Workforce Development. This is  Part 2. They take a deeper look at how registered apprenticeship programs work in Florida and why they remain one of the most effective workforce development models in the construction industry. 

They explain the differences between apprenticeship and pre-apprenticeship, why apprenticeship is a skills program rather than a jobs program, employer sponsorship, tuition-free training, progressive wages, and the role of the U.S. Department of Labor and the Florida Department of Education. They also discuss how merit shop contractors, workforce shortages, and employer investment are shaping the future of construction careers.

In this episode:

• The difference between apprenticeship and pre-apprenticeship
• Why registered apprenticeship is not a jobs program
• Florida's tuition-free apprenticeship model
• Progressive wages and employer-sponsored training
• How registered apprenticeships connect workers with long-term careers
• Why employer investment strengthens workforce development and retention

 The full audiovisual version of this episode is available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/5fFbnjE5q64 

“The Obvious Podcast” is a production of ABC Florida East Coast Chapter. Unless otherwise stated, all content reflects the opinions of the guests and hosts.

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Transcript

Sonny Maken 0:09

Welcome to the Obvious Podcast. This is episode number 98. My name is Sonny Maken. I'm the COO at ABC Florida East Coast.

Peter Dyga 0:17

And I'm Peter Dyga, president and CEO at ABC Florida East Coast.

Sonny Maken 0:21

You are listening or watching to the Obvious Podcast where all opinions expressed are our own, unless we say otherwise.

Peter Dyga 0:27

Subscribe on any major podcast platform platform or watch us in action on YouTube. Follow the Obvious Podcast on Instagram, X, TrueSocial, and TikTok. All the links you need are in the show notes. If you enjoy our show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. This is the best way for others to find our show. And reach out to us anytime at the obvious@abc eastflorida.com. And again, if you're enjoying the ride, we help ask you to help others find us by leaving a review wherever you listen. So happy Friday, Sonny.

Sonny Maken 0:59

Happy Friday, episode 98, about to go in the can. Unbelievable. And this is a part two, right? It's a part two. Okay. So if you haven't heard last Friday's episode, which is called Workforce Development One-on-one. 101. 101. Wow. Workforce Development 101 Part One. Please listen to that. Otherwise, this will and it will make a lot more sense watching this one, which is Workforce Development 101 Part 2.

Peter Dyga 1:25

So we didn't get quite as far in that course as you had wanted to.

Sonny Maken 1:29

Yeah.

Peter Dyga 1:30

I mean we uh we get basic definitions of a few things. And that's about it, right? That's about it.

Sonny Maken 1:35

Well, we also got into the whole um educational and industrial complex as you like. We did. We did a little bit. But it's an interesting episode. Uh, because you're hearing these terms, you're hearing the the word apprenticeship, it's all over the news. You know, you're seeing ads from Meta and ads from Google, and everybody's like, oh, the skill trades are back, the skilled trades are back, you know. And we've been in the skilled trades for 51 years.

Peter Dyga 1:59

By the way, they were never away. They were never away. So yeah. Uh people have continued to be. It's been true, and I think it's still true that um the majority of jobs of the future don't really require you know the kind of investment and and normality, if you will, of traditional post-secondary education.

Sonny Maken 2:15

So I have to tell you this. I was watching this movie yesterday, um, or not yesterday, last week. And it was called uh the movies, it's an older movie from like 2010, maybe a little later. Okay. It's hard to believe that we're calling that stuff. Right? Yeah. Uh a little later, but it wasn't uh it's at least 10 years old, uh, if not longer. Uh it's with Mark Wahlberg, and the movie's called The Gambler. And um he is an English professor in the movie. And there's a long scene that takes place in the class, and this is like your introduction. You realize because first you see him gambling, you don't know what he does, and you see him teaching English at a college level. And he's basically talking about the fact that if you are not a genius, don't even bother pursuing anything, right? And the students are kind of shocked, and because they're like, everybody has value. He's like, No, they don't, not everybody has value. If you don't have the talent, if you if you're not Shakespeare, why are you even bothering? He's like, that's why I would never write a book. Uh that's why I'm a I'm a teacher. Uh fascinating movie, great movie. I highly recommend it. Uh called The Gambler, older movie. But in that movie, he's like, Listen, if you don't have the talent for this, don't do it. Go be an electrician, you'll be much happier. And I was really I was like, wow, this is 20, I think 2010, 2011, something like that. They're still talking about that. They were talking about that. Sure. And now you hear it all the time because people are like, there's a joke, right? A guy calls a plumber and asks him if he can come to the house. The plumber's like, sure, this is my rate. And the guy's like, wait a minute, uh, I'm a lawyer. I charge less money than you charge. And the plumber laughs, and the plumber's like, I know I used to be a lawyer. You know, that's great. Anyway, um, so we talked about apprenticeship, we talked about apprenticeship in Florida. I know we defined some of the terminology, but I know we didn't we didn't even get anywhere close to finishing it. Tell me what else I can define, Sony. What I would love for you to define is workforce development 101. I want to really draw this distinction. And first I want to really I would love for you to draw this distinction between workforce development, uh not workforce development, but apprenticeship. Okay. Being a jobs program or a skills program. Yeah, we get that a lot. We get that a lot.

Peter Dyga 4:22

Yeah. I mean, over the years, you'll run into policymakers and uh whatever what whatnot, uh, you know, that are, yeah, we really need an apprenticeship program and fill in the blank, you know, because they want to create jobs and good paying careers and opportunities. But when you realize that an apprentice is someone already working in the trade, because unless you're working there, you can't get to 2,000 hours, you can't actually do the work and have somebody tell you, no, not that way, this way, you know, and get 2,000 hours a year for four years. So you're talking about what, 16? Did I do that math right? Eight, sorry, eight thousand, eight thousand hours, you know, when you're uh completely done. So that's just on the job hours. Classroom hours are on top of that. Exactly, exactly. So so yeah, so I mean it's a big mistake and a very common one. So it's a great thing to be talking about in in apprenticeship or workforce development 101 is that apprenticeship is not a works or a jobs program because you can't be an apprentice unless you are the job already has to be there. Exactly. We kind of alluded to this last week that that's what kind of sets apart the priorities in apprenticeship education as opposed to traditional post-secondary education, because you can uh develop uh knowledge in a field where there's no future job.

Sonny Maken 5:34

Yep.

Peter Dyga 5:35

You know, whereas that's not going to happen in apprenticeship because you have to have an employer who's willing to employ you on that job in order to be an apprentice. So uh that's by the way, what makes it challenging without public support to kind of make apprenticeship programs available in more rural areas of the state, because if you don't have the number of electricians, the number of plumbers actually enroll in that program in a small area that are working, you can't really have that program. So is that kind of getting it to one on one of, you know.

Sonny Maken 6:06

That's a great that's a great distinction because then so would you we get it all the time.

Peter Dyga 6:12

Even people that should know better by this time. I mean, I can think of conversations I've had multiple times with people, and then the the the 15th time they'll begin to say something about it being a jobs program.

Sonny Maken 6:21

You know, so could you argue that pre-apprenticeship, the way we do it, especially at ABC, uh largest program in the state, 51 years in business, the way we do pre-apprentip, that's a jobs program? Aaron Powell A pre-apprentip is a much closer, I think. Yes. You want to define pre-apprential?

Peter Dyga 6:36

Well, pre-apprenticeship is a little more loose, certainly legally or in statute or whatnot, but I would say most pre-apprenti, well, a pre-apprentip program is just something that prepares someone to hopefully enroll in an apprenticeship program. So by definition, if they're going to be in uh prepared to be enrolled in an apprenticeship program, they're going to be prepared for a job. Yep. Because they'll have to have that job to be the apprentice. So pre-apprenticeship should be about preparing someone for a job so that then they can be enrolled in an apprenticeship program. And so what that means is actually giving them the type of things, the skills and the um credentials that will make them more attractive to an employer to hire them at the bottom rung, if you will, or at the helper level, you know. So uh, you know, which is what we try to do at the ABC and the ABC Institute is uh prepare pre-apprentices for when they could complete our program to be uh a high much higher level of success in terms of an entry-level employee. Yeah, you know, so a particular and normally an individual employer might hire somebody and use old methods. You know, maybe today it's you know the different uh uh search engines and whatnot that uh people uh get employers from, employees from, uh, you know, and they might try them out and they might put them through the whole orientation process and all the education learning, and then find out 30, 60, 90 days later this person's not working out. And all we try to do with what what what a pre-apprenticeship program is going to try to do is uh raise the uh success rate, if you will, of of that type of hiring.

Sonny Maken 8:09

So can you can you talk about the fact that and this is I think this is something really special that ABC does, you know, because I I get asked this question all the time, and when I answer it, people are always very pleasantly surprised. But the fact that we have people we have team members on staff who work for us full time whose job it is just to place people in jobs, right? So whether you are a pre-apprentice or you're an apprentice who had to change jobs, got laid off, whatever happened, circumstances change, right? Uh you're an apprentice coming in from a different state who's taken one a year of classes and now you're in Florida. We have people on our team who literally are there to get you placed with companies. Most of them are members, not all, but most of them are our members.

Peter Dyga 8:56

Um we're gonna give our members preference. Yeah. But you know, if uh our members have taken a pass, you know, on everybody, then we certainly make so even if you're a non-member and you happen to be uh maybe listening to this podcast, you know, you might want to reach out to us because uh we've got a list of uh you know our our goal is to get every single one of those pre-apprentices placed. You know, they're they're young adults uh in most cases that have expressed an interest in a profession within the construction industry and uh taking a class. Taking taking class or classes or certifications and budget 10 card in many cases, and you know, uh basic uh knowledge and introduction. So in any event, they're gonna be a much better uh uh potential employee or successful employee, a much higher percent rate of success than your typical, you know, just rolling the dice and picking somebody up off the street.

Sonny Maken 9:47

So that's pre-apprenticeship. That you could argue, and and not argue, but it really does. It is a jobs program.

Peter Dyga 9:53

The whole point of the phone is much closer to a jobs program. So if people want to talk about pre-apprenticeship in terms of like, hey, we need a pre-apprentip program in our rural county or in our area, sure, that makes a lot more sense. Let's go there, let's try to convince them about the uh opportunities in construction and the uh the different career paths and whatnot, that makes a lot more sense. So but apprenticeship in and of itself is not a jobs program because if if you if you're not already in the job, you can't be an apprentice.

Sonny Maken 10:17

Aaron Ross Powell So how much how much does it cost the student to be an apprentice in the state of Florida?

Peter Dyga 10:21

So we talked a little bit about why Florida's model in particular is worth talking about. So and in Florida, um it by law, uh students cannot be charged tuition for their education. Aaron Powell That makes it a very unique model for learning, right? You know, because we've talked about these uh you know, it's a whole cultural conversation now about the amount of debt that a lot of students are graduating with that are gone through the traditional post-secondary model. Uh and again, sometimes it sounds like we're knocking that, but you know, we've talked a little bit about and they're pursuing degrees in which they've made up or defined on their own or good luck finding a job and whatnot. You know, but on top of that, they're gonna wind up with a you know um um a mountain of debt in many cases. So in any event, um we've you know, we in the state of Florida have uh you know agreed to make sure that this form of post-secondary education is tuition-free to the student. Now, that doesn't mean there's no cost, obviously there's cost. Just like in uh traditional education, the state pays for a large portion of that, but instead of the student paying for it, the employer is paying for it on our side.

Sonny Maken 11:23

Yep.

Peter Dyga 11:23

And again, by the way, that's not even required under law. There are people we compete with that don't even charge the employers. I probably shouldn't be saying that, but you get what you pay for, I'd like to think.

Sonny Maken 11:32

But it's but it's incredibly reasonable, right?

Peter Dyga 11:34

It's not incredibly reasonable, you know. But it's you know, we've just learned over the years. Uh I think the best employers are the ones that have a little vested interest in their employee. And um, you know, we do require on them to do their on-the-job training reports and whatnot. And you know, if somebody's got uh zero skin in the game, uh it makes our life a lot more difficult. So anyway, I mean there's a whole host of reasons why.

Sonny Maken 11:56

I mean, our team does copious amounts of paperwork on this stuff and tracking hours, tracking classroom hours.

Peter Dyga 12:00

Right, it's required because it's uh you know, again, it's a registered program with uh the government. So you know, you need to gotta make sure that when you say they're getting 2,000 hours a year of uh supervised uh education on the job that they're getting it and plus their classroom hours and whatnot.

Sonny Maken 12:14

One of the one of the big reasons I really want to talk about this is if you're listening to this episode and you're interested in taking a class and somebody's trying to charge you a tuition to learn air conditioning or to learn whatever, right?

Peter Dyga 12:25

Uh one of two things is happening. You're either really not in a registered apprenticeship program, correct. Um, or they're breaking the law. So nobody, um, you know, if you're if you're if you're working uh in the trade and in what somebody is calling a red uh uh apprenticeship program and they're charging you something's wrong.

Sonny Maken 12:44

Yeah. If you're interested in getting a real apprenticeship education, reach out to us.

Peter Dyga 12:48

That's that person Sonny mentioned would be glad to talk to you.

Sonny Maken 12:51

Yeah. So anybody's gonna have a job or you don't have a job, if you're looking for a job, we can help with all of that.

Peter Dyga 12:57

Um but by the way, you could be uh working for an employer that maybe uh doesn't know a thing about apprenticeship either. Right. Uh we'll help convince them. You know, if you're interested in getting more skills in your trade, uh reach out to us. You don't need your employer to do it, and we'll reach out to your employer and explain to them why it's beneficial for them to enroll you. Yeah, they do have to sponsor you. You know, that's uh again part of what sets apprenticeship or true apprenticeship register.

Sonny Maken 13:22

You remember the last in the last um episode we I I talked about my meeting that I had with this a specialty contractor trade association. So the leadership of that um trade association in Florida, um the two people that I had a meeting with, they're different companies, they're both ABC members, like our members. Okay. And one of the one of the board chair told me that he had 245 employees uh for his company here in South Florida, you know. And he said, listen, if it makes my people better, I'm happy to pay the fee. And when I told him, I said, well, because you're a member, and if you have over 10 people enrolled, how cheap it is. It's literally like under 500 a year per student. And he was blown away by that. Textbooks and instructors and hours and yeah. So I mean he was like he was like, that's incredible. I'm I'm happy to do this for my people.

Peter Dyga 14:11

I mean, I'm I'm absolutely certain there is no better value that any somebody in this industry can get if they want to invest in their employees and and uh make them again, these are the kind of things that we use uh because we know in studies and different things, but you you're going to get back a more loyal, uh a safer, a more productive um you know, employee uh you love saying that um what if I invest all this time and money in my employees and they leave and then what if you don't and then they stay, right? What's worse? What's worse than it? Because a lot of people are like, well, a lot of very short-sighted, I think, business people have always said, well, I don't want to invest all that money. I'm gonna do that and then they're gonna turn around and leave. Yeah. And then I'm like, well, what's worse than that? Them saying. You not investing in them and having them stay. So look, sure, somebody could potentially leave, you know, but uh quite frankly, I think if you're investing in their education and you're paying them a competitive uh wage rate and benefits package, which I think most people who belong to ABC and this industry do today, um, you're gonna have the exact opposite. You're gonna have a much more loyal employee as opposed to less loyal employee.

Sonny Maken 15:20

So one uh I have a lot more questions for you, but let me just, and I know we're running out of time, so let me just ask you this question. Uh I've heard you say this in meetings all the time, right? Progressive wage scale. Can you explain what that means an apprenticeship in the state of Florida?

Peter Dyga 15:33

Sure, because I think that's pretty unique as well as part of the apprenticeship, a true apprenticeship module, uh a true apprenticeship program, one that is registered, is that you are required to be given a certain minimum uh wage at each stage of your education. You know, so when you finish, you know, your first semester in your first year, your second semester in your first year, your first semester in your second year, at each one of those stages, if you're not making a certain minimum, which is based on the average uh at that level for uh the the participating employers in the program, then you're you're required to be paid that. You know, so you know, and who else, again, I say that who else does that? Yeah. I mean, you know, the University of Florida can't even guarantee you a job, much less a certain pay rate or or FSU or UM or any of the other stuff.

Sonny Maken 16:20

Well you can stick to the University of Florida because I know that's where that's where you went.

Peter Dyga 16:24

So, but you know, in this again, one of the things we talk about a lot that sets apprenticeships apart, you know, is this now as it turns out the market's so competitive that in most cases uh people are having to pay people a much higher rate than you know than that uh just to just to get them. But we do know this, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, that a a graduate journey person, which is what we call someone the equivalent on our education to a bachelor's uh in a in a degree program, a graduate journey person um uh makes more on average than someone who's a baccalaureate, you know. So in any event.

Sonny Maken 17:02

And they're guaranteed to graduate without any debt because you can't even judge it.

Peter Dyga 17:06

And and and because of what they are, an apprentice, they have a job at the end. So they've been they've made money for those eight.

Sonny Maken 17:13

And they've made money for those 48,000 hours that they will put into it. So um this is this is an incredible conversation. I'm so glad we're having this.

Peter Dyga 17:22

And one of the other coming out, because you being more new, what are some of those things that you continue to hear? Have we not got anything we haven't covered in these last few minutes?

Sonny Maken 17:32

Yeah. So I think not un I think the biggest thing I run into is not understanding what apprenticeship is. And I think when they understand sort of how well it's defined in Florida, I think.

Peter Dyga 17:42

And it's registered.

Sonny Maken 17:42

Oh, registered program. Who's registered by with and by, and how does that all work?

Peter Dyga 17:47

Well, one of two options, depending on what state you're in. You're either uh uh registered with the U.S. Department of Labor or you're registered with your State Department of Education.

Sonny Maken 17:55

Okay.

Peter Dyga 17:56

Um, you know, uh under the same U.S. Department of Labor guidelines and um regulations and whatnot. So it's really one standard set by the U.S. Department of Labor, and then either the states take on the role of approving those programs and making sure that they comply with the federal standards, or you leave it to the federal government to do that for you. So but it so Florida does has chosen to be what's called a SAC state, so which is a one that where the state has taken on that responsibility. So we do that through the Department of Education. So in any event, it's you know these programs are registered. So, you know, if if again, we've talked about how people use this term loosely. Uh you know, if you're uh not employed, uh and if you're if it's not tuition free, and ask them if it's a registered program, you know, ask them to give you the number or who it's registered with. Yeah. And if they tell you something other than the State Department of Education or U.S. Department of Labor, you know that something's uh sideways.

Sonny Maken 18:53

So and again, uh we really want you to be an educated consumer, right? So if you're out there looking at this, because I've I've seen ads popping up for like, oh, we'll teach you the AC trades. It's only $7,000 a year or whatever. You don't have to do that. Like you don't have to waste your money, you don't have to go uh invest in something and hope you're getting a quality education and and then pray you'll get a job at the end. And you get a job afterwards. Like there's other ways around it. You don't have to kind of give into that uh model. So we really hope that you know you will share this episode and contact us at WeTrain. At we train.org. Or 305 WeTrain.

Peter Dyga 19:26

That's the phone number. Oh, 305 WeTrain? Okay. I always use that one even though we're our main line. People know the 305 area code, right?

Sonny Maken 19:35

And if we train it's too hard for you to remember, just go wet rain. First time I saw that, it made me laugh. Uh but it's we train. It's we train. Uh 305 WeTrain or WeTrain.org. Check it out. Uh we are out of time. My goodness. Did we cover everything in the I think we covered all the big stuff? We covered all the big stuff.

Peter Dyga 19:54

101? Yeah, 101. It's 001. The typical objections and things we run into.

Sonny Maken 19:59

Yeah. I mean, I think if we got deeper, it'll be 102. So I think we certainly covered the basics. Um, but if you have any questions, let us know. We will connect you with the with the right team and the right people. And uh but just don't fall for like, you know, these expensive solutions that that are now thinking because people are interested, they're just trying to.

Peter Dyga 20:17

By the way, I don't think we covered this, but I want to I want to talk about it. I think that's one of the things that sets um trade associations like ABC uh and unions to some degree, but even unions are more limited, I think, than ABC. I mean, we have 600 or so plus uh employers. Yeah. Um, you know, so when you realize that being part of an apprenticeship program or get receiving an apprenticeship education means you're employed, who better to do it with than an association that has the potent 600 potential employers? Exactly. You know, so uh this is to your point, I think you made in maybe uh part A of this or the first part of this uh episode about the uh colleges and universities offering this. Well, really, like like what employers, you know, and who's gonna have to they have you know n zero to little uh you know connections, if you will, with the industry. Yeah. Uh unions are only three percent of the work construction workforce in the state of Florida, so they're not gonna have a lot of employer connections or oper opportunities either. Sure. So uh organizations like ABC and the trade like the sub-association you talk to are you know are usually the best type of organizations to have apprenticeship programs, you know, because they're doing employment connections.

Sonny Maken 21:28

That's why we're the largest in the state, and then I've been doing it for 51 years. Um we are out of time. So uh join us next Friday for our 99th episode. We're excited about that.

Peter Dyga 21:40

Yeah.

Sonny Maken 21:40

All right. Um thank you for listening and honoring us with your time. And we will see you soon.

Peter Dyga 21:46

And we ask you for your comments, email us theobvious@abceastflorida.com . Until next time. Ciao.